Gotha date; RH

 
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[New proposal] Snøland
04-06-2018, 08:23 AM
Post: #11
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
Imperium Wrote:How does that make sense?

It doesn't. Most of the languages map doesn't make sense. However, while there isn't established agreement, there has been considerable discussion about that region language-wise. Icelandic was one of the main contenders for that region, and I know Mike is working on developing a nation there that uses Icelandic as its main language.

I'm only saying what has already been discussed at length on facebook.

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04-06-2018, 06:45 PM
Post: #12
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
(04-06-2018 06:27 AM)MajorTom Wrote:  There are a couple of factors that would contribute to this jump I'd say. First off, charity has always come from the community since there's no major religion who's organized this in the past. Then there's the idea that "everything belongs to the land" so when large-scale mining and fishing took off for the express purpose of export it only seemed fair that everyone benefits. It's also important to keep in mind that the tribes unified into a nation simply to have a stronger position when negotiating big deals so, in essence, the country is one large tribe.

Snølandic people wouldn't consider their nomadic part to be unproductive as they still provide hides, reindeer products and, within their locale, whatever meal nature has to offer. Self-sufficiency and freedom are valued exceptionally high. Even those who work in mines wouldn't want to fully rely on imported goods. If anything, the sentiment would probably be the other way around as you can't eat money. The "productive" part of society does get paid a working wage, so they benefit from their work twice, but then they do have more bills to pay.

If the sentiment is that you can't eat money, what value is there to redistribution? In other words, what does the redistributed money buy? Imported luxuries? Healthcare?

I wonder if this money would have the same consequence to Snølanders as it did American Indians. When nomadic tribal cultures are given 'handouts' and modern luxuries they tend to experience societal collapse. The curse of foreign aid is a similar phenomenon.

Also, what do you mean that the "productive" part of society benefits from their work twice?

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04-06-2018, 08:07 PM
Post: #13
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
(04-06-2018 06:45 PM)El Jeffe Wrote:  If the sentiment is that you can't eat money, what value is there to redistribution? In other words, what does the redistributed money buy? Imported luxuries? Healthcare?

I wonder if this money would have the same consequence to Snølanders as it did American Indians. When nomadic tribal cultures are given 'handouts' and modern luxuries they tend to experience societal collapse. The curse of foreign aid is a similar phenomenon.

Also, what do you mean that the "productive" part of society benefits from their work twice?

Redistributed money buys them necessities they can't get otherwise. Think tools, healthcare, bullets, additional food supplies. People may very well spend it on the wrong things and it may destroy the traditional way of living, but it may also reinforce it, making it that little bit easier to go back to nature. Only time will tell.

As for productive people benefiting twice. Say if someone works in a mine, they get paid for their labor of working in the mine, but they also get the handouts from when the government sells whatever they mine. This is done to prevent, say miners, from feeling like they're being treated unfairly because they do the hard work and others benefit.
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04-06-2018, 11:21 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2018 11:22 PM by TeamBattleaxe.)
Post: #14
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
Quote:Redistributed money buys them necessities they can't get otherwise. Think tools, healthcare, bullets, additional food supplies. People may very well spend it on the wrong things and it may destroy the traditional way of living, but it may also reinforce it, making it that little bit easier to go back to nature. Only time will tell.

What you find with groups like the Native Americans and Australian Aborigines is that persecution, exploitation and a loss of sovereignty over their affairs tend to facilitate a collapse of society. The Snolanders are sovereign and don't appear to be victims of persecution with much of their culture remaining stable and intact. They are developing on their own terms and not being dragged along by a colonial overlord.

Quote:As for productive people benefiting twice. Say if someone works in a mine, they get paid for their labor of working in the mine, but they also get the handouts from when the government sells whatever they mine. This is done to prevent, say miners, from feeling like they're being treated unfairly because they do the hard work and others benefit.

This could work pretty well if the miners are content with what they're getting. Considering that Snoland has industrialised only recently and it has maintained a less materialistic culture you could expect that most of these folks would be rather comfortable. Snoland wouldn't have to deal with strikes and labour unions at least as long as it can count of profits from it's raw materials paying into the income fund. That means the main risk of this model is a crash in the price of these products.

The Snolanders will want to ensure they have a sufficiently diversified economy and several fallback measures in place to insulate their economy from volatile market forces.
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04-07-2018, 07:51 PM
Post: #15
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
MajorTom Wrote:As for productive people benefiting twice. Say if someone works in a mine, they get paid for their labor of working in the mine, but they also get the handouts from when the government sells whatever they mine. This is done to prevent, say miners, from feeling like they're being treated unfairly because they do the hard work and others benefit.

I see. So the Snølanders are not taxed per se but instead benefit from a kind of national profit sharing scheme? That is interesting.

Overall sounds like a cool idea.

TEAMBATTLEAXE Wrote:What you find with groups like the Native Americans and Australian Aborigines is that persecution, exploitation and a loss of sovereignty over their affairs tend to facilitate a collapse of society. The Snolanders are sovereign and don't appear to be victims of persecution with much of their culture remaining stable and intact. They are developing on their own terms and not being dragged along by a colonial overlord.

I disagree. In nearly every case, the trade goods proceeded persecution, exploitation and a loss of sovereignty as the traded products reach well beyond the zone of contact. It is the items themselves that undermine traditional societies. There are groups in the Amazon for example that receive western goods second hand without ever seeing a non-native person and there still is a negative consequence. At the very least, the new products change the way people live and this undermines the old ways. Often the youth leave the traditional lifestyle to follow the western goods. The simple comforts of technology ill-suited to a nomadic lifestyle tend to make people settle down. Nomads tend to not have to deal with sanitation issues anyways (they just move on) and this is complicated by durable goods. As a result, when they do settle they end up living in a shit ton of waste.

One possible exception or explanation why this wouldn't happen is if a society gave unusual social or political status to those who kept the old ways.

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04-08-2018, 10:08 AM
Post: #16
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
(04-07-2018 07:51 PM)El Jeffe Wrote:  At the very least, the new products change the way people live and this undermines the old ways. Often the youth leave the traditional lifestyle to follow the western goods.
.....
One possible exception or explanation why this wouldn't happen is if a society gave unusual social or political status to those who kept the old ways.

I just realized that I didn't add the above in my proposal, but yes, this would definitely be a challenge for the future. And as we can see in many societies that live this far north, this could result in high depression, alcoholism, and suicide rates.

Since the logic and current mindset of the Snølandic people is that freedom and nature bring purpose and happiness, their upbringing, education, and protectionist measures from the government could persuade people to stick to their roots. However, I don't think it's fair to come up with a country that has already solved these problems before they've actually happened.

TEAMBATTLEAXE rightly pointed out that they develop their own terms, based on their own values. To me, that doesn't mean that they have it all under control, but that negative trends would appear more gradually (think of the social pressure and expectations, for example) and that the government has more power, and more importantly cares more, to attempt to reverse these trends.
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04-08-2018, 11:50 PM
Post: #17
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
(04-08-2018 10:08 AM)MajorTom Wrote:  However, I don't think it's fair to come up with a country that has already solved these problems before they've actually happened.

Agreed. I am only expressing my fascination with the concept. Not saying how it should be or why the concept won't work. I look forward to whatever you come up with.

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04-09-2018, 09:21 PM
Post: #18
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
Hey Tom! I'm joining the party a bit late. Had a RL Kakuri festival to attend. Long story... Welcome!

I'm a bit of a purist when it comes to making use of the things provided in the atlas, in this case language and religion. I'm also the guy who's breaking those same provisions occassionally.

Language... Since Jeff is using his own mix of old-scando-norse and the map states "Norwegian" as indication, I do not see any reason why you could not use one of the Norwegian languages as the lingua franca of Snöland. (BTW I have a Swedish laptop so I am lazy and using ö's). A nomadic, tribal culture would have very large differences between the languages used. You could say each group of 150 might have its own language. A bit like Norway itself where each village has its own dialect and the use bokmål or nynorsk to understand people from other regions. The main issue would be to find an explanation for this. The historical presence of the Greater Stoldavic Empire and the current presence of Aedeland will provide plenty of clues.

Another one is religion. The whole area is marked yellow as Orkanan. I have been designated the in-house expert on Orkanan, since I had to come up with the narrative when we kicked off Gotha. It is safe to say that Orkanan and a nomadic, tribal lifestyle can be combined. Mellanhand Orkanan (the one in Vittmark) and Cydhlig (Penryn) both are firmly rooted in land ownership and agriculture, but there is a tribal culture in Vittmark called the Bengtist Stift who combine it with a nomadic lifestyle. How the Snölandic version evolved and what it precisely is... If you want you could use me as sparring partner for ideas.

The reason why I emphasize religion is that it is the basis of the mindset and culture of the people. By keeping it vague and unformulated, you will be doing yourself short. My experience is that once you have a religion carved out, the rest follows easily and is integrated.

Final note: figure out how a monetary economy evolved in a nomadic lifestyle. It will probably provide an answer how this nation was founded. And I am pretty sure that an event like the Pan Anarian War, which ended 25 years ago, will provide a nice timeframe for a nation like this.

Looking forward to see this develop further!

VITTMARK:"This mess is a place." --- FISKS:"Fisk you!"
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04-11-2018, 08:12 PM
Post: #19
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
For the record I approve of this proposal, it seems very interesting and hopefully soon you can get to work on it. How we doing this? One admin down, one more to approve?

As for the language, I think you should be allowed to use a Finno-Ugric Language if you want to, it fits the location and concept very well. That's my two cents.
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04-11-2018, 08:29 PM
Post: #20
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
I am very happy with this proposal also, so consider it approved by a second admin.

As for the language issue, I agree with Pep. I think Aedelish or a Norwegian language would be most appropriate for the major coastal cities, and other dialects or isolates for the nomadic peoples.

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