Gotha date; RH

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[New proposal] Snøland
04-17-2018, 04:09 PM
Post: #31
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
The intent of the language map is to avoid illogical development. I see nothing wrong or illogical with a Finnish/Sami inspired language in the Jorveh hinterlands and a Norwegian inspired language in the population centers. Furthermore, it is not too far removed from the island of Finno-Ugric speakers. We don't have to call it Finnish. Call it a PIE or Indo-Uralic.

04-17-2018, 04:20 PM
Post: #32
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
(04-17-2018 04:09 PM)El Jeffe Wrote:  Furthermore, it is not too far removed from the island of Finno-Ugric speakers. We don't have to call it Finnish. Call it a PIE or Indo-Uralic.

How about this, we make the Nestor Isles Hungarian? The language is the most prominent of the Ugric languages which are related to Finnish distantly and I don't believe Hungarian is referred to at all on the language map when it really should be. In this case I consider it rather good for the languages to be separated geographically since that's what happened to these languages in the RW.

Imagine maritime Magyars....
04-17-2018, 04:48 PM
Post: #33
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
I think this is what we have so far for Nestor. If you look at Sudety, it seems Jerry was using Slavic languages (Slovenian/Czech). I think its capital is Czech word meaning ruling.

04-18-2018, 02:51 PM
Post: #34
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
Sudety is not IG. There are some old pages that haven't been removed, but it was never developed completely and Jerry left in 2012... So the Atlas stands.

It might however be possible to replace this "proto indo european" designation with something else, but given the position of Uralic on the map, Finnish would not be the first that springs to mind. We'd be needing a darn good reason why the north pole would be the source of this language group and how an entire culture ended up on a subtropical island without having affected other coastal areas.

VITTMARK:"This mess is a place." --- FISKS:"Fisk you!"
04-18-2018, 06:24 PM
Post: #35
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
This kinda leaves Tom with a whole lot of nothing to go with as there is no actual PIE language. Would it be a workable compromise to allow him to develop a PIE language that is heavily influenced by Indo-Uralic? He can borrow heavily from Finnish without calling it Finnish.

04-18-2018, 07:13 PM
Post: #36
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
(04-18-2018 02:51 PM)Pepijn Wrote:  We'd be needing a darn good reason why the north pole would be the source of this language group and how an entire culture ended up on a subtropical island without having affected other coastal areas.

Here we go, a suggested narrative with some ancient lore. Jorveh would have originally been predominately Finnic until Aedeland colonised it's holdings on the continent. This situation came about following the migration period when the Achlt peoples migrated into Stoldavia follow a 'little ice age' and the 'Finnics' came in after conditions improved again. This echoes RW events in Greenland when the Norse were ejected but harsh climatic conditions and the Inuit populated their former lands.

Along with this, Jorveh has a large coastline and likely rich fisheries which a native people would have to tap into to survive. This would encourage a maritime culture, which due to Jorveh's unstable climate over the centuries would pump out Snollish tribes during cold phases. Periodic emigration could become a part of Snollish culture with coastal communities being found across Northern Anaria though mostly assimilated by the present time.

Nester could have been settled by an earlier ambitious migration of a large tribe when populations were relatively lower and their culture group could gain dominance early on and developing into the IG representatives of the Ugric Languages. The Proto-Nesten people could have migrated along the east coast of Stoldavia and originally inhabited the coast opposite Dhonowlgos. That alone should present a viable reason for these folks to move along at some point after all the Wolgos are known to have conducted raids along that coast.

Can you here me Major Tom?
04-19-2018, 07:10 AM
Post: #37
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
(04-18-2018 07:13 PM)TeamBattleaxe Wrote:  ......

Can you here me Major Tom?

Absolutely. This wouldn't be a million miles off as to why we have Finnish and Hungarian. One group went one way, another group the other. At some point, they lost touch and started borrowing words from those around them. Or, that's the TL;DR.

Either way, I don't know enough about Gotha's (pre)history to weigh in on this matter. As is clear from TeamBattleaxe's post, whichever language is used has a huge impact on the history and development of the nation and obviously on all names as well. As such, I'd really like us to come to a conclusion so that I can proceed.

If no consensus can be found on using Finnish, what's the original narrative for Norwegian in the region in that part of Jørveh? I then have to tie that in as to why Snøland is no part of Aedeland.
04-19-2018, 11:38 AM (This post was last modified: 04-19-2018 11:41 AM by Pepijn.)
Post: #38
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
There is also a migration map... Which says something else. BUT in no way does it explain why Uralic languages are spoken on Nestor. So the most important conclusion is that by only using the available maps in the atlas, we're not going to be able to come up with a narrative that makes sense.

Then there's the discrepancy between the timeframe of the migration map and the language map. Last migration wave on the map dates 5000 years back, while we know that the presence of Hungarian or Romanian (to name a few examples) in RL has a much shorter history (1500-2000 years).

Lastly, there is no real connection between ethnicity and language. A lot of the people living in Romania or Ukraine are Germanic Gothans. (Not Gotha-Gothans, but RL Gothans... confusing). The Franks living in France are basicly the same ethnicity as those in Germany, but they use a completely different language.

So, let's get back to the drawing board now.

We have an ethnic group closely related to the Aldsay and we're looking for an explanation to why they would speak Finnish. That touches the issue why the Aldsay of Aedeland would not speak Finnish, since they're the same group of people living in the same region. If I remember correctly, that was a tough thing to figure out, why would a non-Dölmer people be speaking a language mainly associated with Dölmer people. We're not going to do that discussion again.

Snöland wasn't a part of the large empires (Orkanan Realm, Greater Stoldavic Empire), but has been under the influence of it, and even som of the smaller political constellations, like Skara Samverkan and more recently Aedeland. So as a language of commerce and trade, some scando-germanic language will at least be present as it is on Färöer, Iceland or Greenland. Or Finland... Which explains the pink color in the atlas.

If the majority language is Finnish, then the only explanation might be that Uralic was the default language up to 3000-5000 years ago in Stoldavia and that it was pushed into the periphery by the Gothan version of Germanic languages. Where the aforementioned empires will have played a role. That seems to make more sense than trying to explain how the Gothan version of Magyars ended up on Nestor without having left traces in coastal communities everywhere. It's a bit like how Celtic and Basque languages were pushed out by Roman and Germanic languages in Europe.

This kind of blends the ideas of Tom, James and Jeff into a plausible narrative, although it still remains a bit unclear about how Aedeland ended up with its language. I think we buried the issue under an IG disagreement among scholars, where the Orkanan linguists state that Aedeland took over the language when it was part of the Realm and GSE, while Aldsay linguists are convinced that the Orkanan realm took their language and established it around the continent. I think this disagreement still works as an explanation.

So, would this work for Major Tom? You have some material in the form of the Orkanan Realm, Skara Samverkan, the history of Aedeland (Cykeria) and the Greater Stoldavic Empire to work with, even if it touches Snöland only a bit. And would this be a reasonable explanation according to the other players, especially the neighbors?

VITTMARK:"This mess is a place." --- FISKS:"Fisk you!"
04-20-2018, 06:09 AM
Post: #39
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
This would certainly work for me. There's sufficient and plausible enough backstory in my opinion.
04-20-2018, 05:31 PM
Post: #40
RE: [New proposal] Snøland
Sounds good to me.


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