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The Ancient Empires of Anaria
09-26-2018, 12:16 AM
Post: #31
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
TeamBattleaxe Wrote:This could explain what was going on in Errea during the mid 5000's. It describes a series of religious wars between the Orkananists and Sadarenes.

Excellent find! I had forgotten that this even existed. Thanks.

Also, I've added the first part of the Dragar Monopoly page - an overview of the Monopoly for the introduction to the article on the wiki.

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09-26-2018, 02:36 PM
Post: #32
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
Having thought about the Theomachy in Istania during this period, Sadarianism was already, by necessity, well established as far east as Istania prior to the Parnethian conquests. Thus, it would be slightly less likely that Parnethia would have been Sadarene - and it certainly wouldn't have spread the religion to Anaria itself. The geography and spread of Sadarianism in modern day Anaria makes this even less likely.

Consequently, the question remains what religion did the Parnethians follow? Was it an early form of Izha? If so, then how do we reconcile the fact that the centre of the religion remains firmly in modern Anat Tahan in Tharna? Or do we create a whole new religious system, or an extinct subbranch of Izha? If they are Izhaic, in particular, it is likely that the flavour of the Parnethian conquest would have been overtly religious, it being an aggressive crusading sort of faith.

Any ideas?

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09-26-2018, 03:56 PM
Post: #33
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
Mmm I always conceived of Parnethia as being Sadarene by assuming that Sadarianism was a less centralised set of beliefs like the Indo-European pantheon. You could have parallels between Parnethian and Istanian deities which would be based upon seasonal and elemental phenomena. Sadarianism is in effect pre-Orkanan Paganism which still survives across much of Central and Southern Anaria.

I'd also rather that the Parnethian Empire was a largely secular empire which caved to pressure from sectarian factions it couldn't control. At the very end of the Empire, Izhaic invaders could conqueror the Parnethi homelands thus opening a new chapter in history where the Dragar lead several Orkanan holy wars to push them back. You've already written of that haven't you?
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09-26-2018, 06:06 PM
Post: #34
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
TeamBattleaxe Wrote:Sadarianism is in effect pre-Orkanan Paganism which still survives across much of Central and Southern Anaria.

Is it? I can't find any history on the religion on the wiki. Besides, paganism is by its very definition hugely varied. If Sadarianism is indeed that ancient a religion, akin to a pre-Orkanan paganism, the vastness of the Anarian continent would mean that there would be huge variation in religious practice. Unless we establish Sadariansim as a major umbrella religion that dominated Anaria by religious conversion etc. in antiquity. Akin to the spread of Buddhism and Hinduism in South Asia, perhaps?

TeamBattleaxe Wrote:At the very end of the Empire, Izhaic invaders could conqueror the Parnethi homelands thus opening a new chapter in history where the Dragar lead several Orkanan holy wars to push them back. You've already written of that haven't you?

That could work. I have no idea how old Izha is. It's Brian's invention, but we are unlikely to get any direction from him. I messaged him about this thread as it concerns his neck of the woods, but he doesn't reply to my messages anymore. Rather rude if you ask me. Nevertheless, it will be up to us it looks like!

There were indeed many holy wars fought in Anaria Minor over the years. Orkanan Anisora and the precursor Anisoran states traditionally saw themselves as the defenders of Orkanan. Izha is an expansionist religion, so much fighting would have happened. But I like your idea that Izhaic invaders finished the Parnethian Empire off. The Dragar Monopoly would nevertheless have brought Orkanan to much of Anaria Minor while the Parnethians were retreating westward, so we have a form of religious conflict before and potentially after the Parnethians.

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09-26-2018, 06:52 PM
Post: #35
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
(09-26-2018 06:06 PM)August Dux Wrote:  
TeamBattleaxe Wrote:Sadarianism is in effect pre-Orkanan Paganism which still survives across much of Central and Southern Anaria.

Akin to the spread of Buddhism and Hinduism in South Asia, perhaps?

In a nutshell. Orkananism is like the Buddhism to Sadarianist Hinduism.

(09-26-2018 06:06 PM)August Dux Wrote:  
TeamBattleaxe Wrote:At the very end of the Empire, Izhaic invaders could conqueror the Parnethi homelands thus opening a new chapter in history where the Dragar lead several Orkanan holy wars to push them back. You've already written of that haven't you?

That could work. I have no idea how old Izha is. It's Brian's invention, but we are unlikely to get any direction from him. I messaged him about this thread as it concerns his neck of the woods, but he doesn't reply to my messages anymore. Rather rude if you ask me. Nevertheless, it will be up to us it looks like!

There were indeed many holy wars fought in Anaria Minor over the years. Orkanan Anisora and the precursor Anisoran states traditionally saw themselves as the defenders of Orkanan. Izha is an expansionist religion, so much fighting would have happened. But I like your idea that Izhaic invaders finished the Parnethian Empire off. The Dragar Monopoly would nevertheless have brought Orkanan to much of Anaria Minor while the Parnethians were retreating westward, so we have a form of religious conflict before and potentially after the Parnethians.

I think we are better making Izha a later addition to Anarian history. Anat Tahan and Hayrand should, to me, be considered the main progenitors of this religion and rivals in that regard. The history of these nations points to the origin and nature of Izha.

It's a great shame that we cannot all co-operate a little better. I don't know what do about absent players, only that I suggest they be more considerate of players that want to be more active.
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09-26-2018, 07:26 PM
Post: #36
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
Quote:I don't know what do about absent players, only that I suggest they be more considerate of players that want to be more active.
Gotha was designed for different activity levels, so cooperation and co-dvelopment have always been tricky. But zero can not be considered an activity level, unfortunately.

Ooh, I almost forgot, someone dug up the ancient civs of Anaria page. I stumbled upon that one ages ago as well. All those civs predate the Orkanan Realm. More comparable to Neolithic and Bronze Age civilizations in RW terms. Old Kingdom of Egypt, Akkadian Empire, Assyrian Empire, Old Assyrian Empire, Hittite Empire, that kind of stuff. The things we're discussing here is more Antiquity and Roman Age...

VITTMARK:"This mess is a place." --- FISKS:"Fisk you!"
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09-26-2018, 07:57 PM
Post: #37
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
TeamBattleaxe Wrote:Orkananism is like the Buddhism to Sadarianist Hinduism.

I'm happy with that analogy!

Pepijn Wrote:
TeamBattleaxe Wrote:I don't know what do about absent players, only that I suggest they be more considerate of players that want to be more active.
Gotha was designed for different activity levels, so cooperation and co-dvelopment have always been tricky. But zero can not be considered an activity level, unfortunately.

Indeed. I am at a loss as well. I was merely being polite by messaging him. The Parnethian Empire concerns ancient Tahani land, essentially. I wanted his input and perspective, but I doubt it will be forthcoming.

Nevertheless, we have a working concept! I'm happy to place Izha as appearing in western Anaria post-Parnethian fall. That would be maybe around 5850. Plenty of time after that to cause trouble between Izhaics and Orkanans!

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10-02-2018, 03:51 PM
Post: #38
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
I have to commend Alex's good work on the Dragar so far, I hope you've been having fun!

Shall we get to work developing the Parnethian Empire in detail? Based on what you put on the Dragar page the Parnethi have a very Byzantine flavour which I was going to suggest anyway. I still think that we need to define it's origins and I like the idea of a great conqueror who after consolidating a sizeable kingdom in Anaria Minor spread his power east through zest for conquest and exploration!

I've also been thinking about the name of Anaria. It supposed to be Parnethi in origin and means 'back to source'. The Parnethi themselves live on the fringe of Anaria and they're name for themselves could share a root with the name of the continent.

Arne > Anar, ia = Later Dragar suffix
P(a) = Of, Arne = Anaria, Thi = Derived from (roughly).

The idea here is that the Parnethi were, if you go far enough back in history, of the same stock as other Anaria peoples. According to lore they are of course, being Anario-Jorvens.
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10-02-2018, 09:35 PM
Post: #39
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
TeamBattleaxe Wrote:I have to commend Alex's good work on the Dragar so far, I hope you've been having fun!

Thanks! I am having rather too much fun. And spending time on it when I should be reading for my Masters! I am sure you all know by now that I am incapable of writing a concise page!

TeamBattleaxe Wrote:Shall we get to work developing the Parnethian Empire in detail? Based on what you put on the Dragar page the Parnethi have a very Byzantine flavour which I was going to suggest anyway. I still think that we need to define it's origins and I like the idea of a great conqueror who after consolidating a sizeable kingdom in Anaria Minor spread his power east through zest for conquest and exploration!

I think we should! I used the image of a Byzantine emperor as a flavour, yes. The trouble I am coming to is trying to establish what artistic styles and time periods to use for the Monopoly/Parnethian Empire at this time. At the moment it is a bit wishy-washy depending on what I can find. Still, I think the Byzantine model makes some amount of sense.

In terms of its origins, I like the outline you suggest. Well established kingdom in Anaria Minor, slowly expanding maybe, until a military genius (probably slightly megalomanical) comes to the throne and decides he'd like everything to the east. That King would almost certainly be one of the key historical figures in a conventional "great men of history" narrative. Certainly his battles would be case studied, I am sure.

If his conquest begins around 5300, the tech chart has feudalism kicking in at that point. This could work very nicely for us if we want to make the Parnethian Empire the kickstarter of feudalism in Anaria. This could mirror the impact of Charlemagne's Empire and how his reliance on vassals to manage his vast Empire helped entrench feudalism in Western Europe.

Now, the only trouble is most historians draw a distinct connection between the establishment of feudalism in Europe with the 'invention' (import from the east) of the stirrup. The tech chart has the stirrup appearing (which I assume is when it appears in Anaria?) three hundred years later c.5600. If this is indeed the case, then early feudalism would be rather different in Anaria. No knights in shining armour. Perhaps I'm digging into this too much, but the foundation of feudalism is military service of the lord himself. There needs to be a reason why only lords can fight (i.e. armour, weapons, and horses being prohibitively expensive). The whole basis of feudal land tenure is to support the lord so he can focus solely on training and fighting for his liege. Without that, no feudalism.

I know it's canon, but I am generally quite sceptical of the tech chart. One of the most bizarre choices is the development of clockwork and optics in the 63rd century, but the trebuchet isn't invented until two centuries later!!

TeamBattleaxe Wrote:Arne > Anar, ia = Later Dragar suffix
P(a) = Of, Arne = Anaria, Thi = Derived from (roughly).

I like your thinking! And your etymology is very nicely put together. You have the classicist's approval. Perhaps one of the foundation myths of their people was a migration of sorts from Anaria? We will perhaps avoid a foundation myth based around a bunch of refugees fleeing a burning city after a twenty-year war somewhere in Anaria (that's been done before - a lot!)

This etymology, however, would need to be a much later development than "Anaria" - i.e. the name "Anaria" would most likely have had to saturate itself in non-Stoldavic languages so it would be widely known as Anaria. Unless their myth comes from Thultannia or somewhere? But I like this idea!

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10-04-2018, 05:36 PM
Post: #40
RE: The Ancient Empires of Anaria
On the great conqueror, I've always like the name or epithet 'Sandaro' which is Greek in origin and means 'Protector of the People'. It's used as a given name in Greece today for both sexes. We could further Hellenise it into 'Sandaros the Great' and there you have a name for the conqueror, founder of the Sandarian Dynasty which would rule Parnethia for most of its history.

Not only would Sandaros seek to protect the interests of the Parnethi through expansion but establish a feudal type bureaucracy beneath a layer of imperial administration, similar to the early Byzantine Empire. The aristocratic elite of the Empire would of course be mostly Parnethi across it's extent however a merchant class of majority Dragar extraction would increase in power and influence as time goes on and become rebellious later on....

It's likely that client states and monarchies on the fringes of the Empire would marry into the Sandarian dynasty and claim decent from Sandaros himself in later times. This refers possibly to Auresian and Anisoran noble families.

Sandaros would have been of Parnethi nobility though not necessarily privileged from the start, like RW Alexander was. I'd prefer a story similar to the one told of Shaka Zulu, who had to deal with hardship and ostracism as a youngster and had to assert power though a mix of gravitas and force. The energy of this upward trajectory turns outwards once he attains power. Perhaps he resolves a civil war or something period of unrest and inherits a militarised polity through his efforts?

Build a story around this figure and you've got a good foundation for other lore concerning Anaria. I wouldn't be surprised if in Sadarene or especially Antiquarian circles, a cult of worship persists around Sandaros.

Quote:The tech chart has the stirrup appearing (which I assume is when it appears in Anaria?) three hundred years later c.5600. If this is indeed the case, then early feudalism would be rather different in Anaria. No knights in shining armour.

Cavalry was not as key a component of early feudalism as one may think. Indeed 'knights in shining armour' are 1) associated with the high and late middle ages anyway 2) were relatively rare due to the money and resources required kit a knight out and 3) we less effective as units outside specific battlefield conditions.

In the early middle ages Cavalry was mostly light and mobile and used sparingly. Most wars were still fought by troops on foot equipped with spears, axes and protective leather or mail. Stirrups are less important for light cavalry and cultures that specialised in cavalry warfare like the Scythians and Mongols trains units that could ride without them. I'm not sure if Byzantine Cataphracts used stirrups but our Parnethians would probably have used them along with mounted bows.
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