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The Kingdom of Varennes
10-22-2019, 11:50 PM
Post: #11
RE: The Kingdom of Varennes
(10-22-2019 10:21 PM)Pepijn Wrote:  Interesting development. Some thoughts anybody can pick up discussing:

Building up debts as a nation... How does that work in a Gothan setting? Who is providing the money and what would they get in return? Because usually in traditional kingdoms, the king just robs from the land what he thinks he needs to continue his hobbies. And if he would owe someone money, that person would probably end up face down in a ditch or behind bars for some made-up charges. Now, my cavemanish approach of this era does not have to bite your timeline, it might just be another way of describing the same thing.

And I think you're right! I have to admit, I do have to do some deep dives on the details of the general narrative, especially details like these. Of course, looting and robbing are a way of doing things (these would be all given, at least in Varennes, a veneer of legitimacy by a simple phrase: "In the name of the King!"), and I could see these people doing the robbing trying to see if they can multiply or deposit their money (something that becomes a political talking point for liberals and radicals later on). Whether it's through trade, starting new businesses, developing land, etc etc I'm sure at some point banking would be needed.

I'm not exactly sure where this particular development can happen in the timeline - I don't exactly have a full understanding of the timeline in Gotha yet, I'm sure I'm going to have to make a lot of adjustments! Part of the challenges I'll have to tackle as does any other worldbuilding (country-building?) project just starting out. Incidentally, that's why I didn't use any actual dates, makes it easier to change and adjust later.

(10-22-2019 10:21 PM)Pepijn Wrote:  Where do political parties come from if the democracy is only there for a little elite? One usually gets a Whigs - Tories type two faction system, or Roundheads and Royalists.

I envision seeing the development of political factions, first, in the nobility as they battle among themselves to gain royal favors and prestigious positions. Families would likely compete with others, with some of the most well-resourced nobles calling up their vassals to support them/align with them.

I think that is bound to start a tradition of factions forming as nobles rise and fall in the rough sea of royal favor.

Leading up to the Revolution, tensions would be mounting internally. I envision more religiously conservative forces seeing the country slides into an era without morals, full of decadence. There's also those in the society that see the severe economic disparity between the elites and the much larger masses under them and want to change it. Added to that, any factions within the nobility that may have been alienated by the King prior to his defeat and exile...

(10-22-2019 10:21 PM)Pepijn Wrote:  Lastly, if three large nations sit next to each other they will have fought countless wars. See UK, France, Spain, later Germany. This does however give a great excuse to come to some conclusion to the Pan-Anarian War that lasted decades. There will most probably have been all kind of buffer states or more loosely allied dependencies between Auresia, Varennes and Anisora, but at the end of the Pan Anarian, those three carved up the shores between them reaching the status quo we have for the last 2-3 decades. Which also explains the presence of minority languages, these are just former buffer regions that one of these three nations did not want to see allying themselves with one of their neighbors.

That's also part of the work I'll have to do as I develop Varennes, in fact, I think you're right - at some point there would have been wars and conflicts between neighbors as they grow, settle, and develop. Depending on where these wars fall in the timeline, they can be great catalysts for the internal strife I've described will be part of Varennes!

(10-22-2019 10:21 PM)Pepijn Wrote:  Looking forward to some "one nation, one king, one language" policies being deployed here.

*Varennese Conservatives cheer*

(10-22-2019 10:22 PM)TeamBattleaxe Wrote:  First off, I'm liking that flag, it looks so different from most flags!

Thank you! Smile

(10-22-2019 10:22 PM)TeamBattleaxe Wrote:  Also I like you're initial proposal and would prefer it to remain where it is. We can yield on the languages issue for sure. Indeed Alex, being our main Dragar historian up to now could create a linguistic continuum from Anisora to Errea (name might as well stay) showing how Gotha's 'romance' languages evolved.

Spanish would probably be where Auresia if French is where Varennes is but clearly you'll have some Spanish speaking territories if you have land near Auresia. I would imagine despite being enclosed on two sides, you will like France was in the RW be a strong nation with past conquests into adjacent regions.

As for the lands of Thultannia across the sea, I think they were meant as an analogue to Britain and I would favour they remain that way, a land of Celts and Saxons. I'd like to propose an idea for dusting off Alsair to serve useful narrative purposes, including a base of Standard English and an intellectual tradition that makes sense. Should leave the detail of that for another thread though...

Fair enough! I am glad I can keep the original claim then.
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10-24-2019, 11:13 AM
Post: #12
RE: The Kingdom of Varennes
Edgard Wrote:Maybe I can use that to organize some smaller areas where minorities are concentrated and later on as Varennes grows and modernizes, I can eventually have some regional nationalist movements like in Catalonia or Quebec in Varennes...

I think that's a good idea. In a continent like Anaria, there would be loads of minorities around without a nation state of their own - it's an imperialist setting, after all! That's what I've been doing with the Lusavanic people in Anisora. A distinct ethnic, linguistic and religious entity that causes issues for their Anisoran masters. Lots of religious and ethnic tension - great for worldbuilding!

Pepijn Wrote:Building up debts as a nation... How does that work in a Gothan setting? Who is providing the money and what would they get in return?

An interesting point. It entirely depends on the economic model employed by the state in question. Anisora for example uses a largely liberal (Liberal) market capitalist system, so a lot of debt is private as well as state-owned. Often national debts are organised between state controlled banks. So, if the Varennese crown borrowed money, they may have borrowed it internationally from the Auresian, Anisoran and Amberian state banks, for example.

Also, just putting it out there, the Pontecorvo banking family could be a player in this. Roughly based on the Rothschild family, they are one of the richest families in Gotha and, like the Rothschilds, would likely bankroll nations, such is their wealth and influence. There may be a Varennese branch of the family that lent the King loads of cash over the years.

TeamBattleaxe Wrote:Alex, being our main Dragar historian up to now could create a linguistic continuum from Anisora to Errea (name might as well stay) showing how Gotha's 'romance' languages evolved.

Happy to work something out! It makes sense for the Romance (Dragaric) languages to be along the northern coast of Anaria Major. Also, James is right - large swathes of Auresia would be Spanish speaking, so the southern region of Varennes would be the Spanish-speaking region; working out the larger nationalist or ethnic links across the borders of Varennes and Auresia will be really fascinating. But that's for you, Edgard, and Tom to decide.

TeamBattleaxe Wrote:As for the lands of Thultannia across the sea, I think they were meant as an analogue to Britain

I'm also happy to keep this a vague analogue of Britain - although the Romance (Dragaric) language(s) spoken in the south may need to be thought about. Potentially Bretonic?

Pepijn Wrote:if three large nations sit next to each other they will have fought countless wars.

There would certainly have been wars! We already have the Auresio-Anisoran War (7395-7397) fought over control of the Medio Sea. Not sure how to slot Varennes into that. It depends on how strong/internally stable Varennes was at the time. But I am very happy to organise a war or two!

Pepijn Wrote:There will most probably have been all kind of buffer states or more loosely allied dependencies between Auresia, Varennes and Anisora, but at the end of the Pan Anarian, those three carved up the shores between them reaching the status quo we have for the last 2-3 decades.

I like the idea of buffer states being absorbed. But I think Edgard has suggested he wanted Varennes to be neutral, or at least preoccupied with internal crisis, during the Pan-Anarian War? You'll have to enlighten us, Edgard. Having said that, it was a 50 year conflict. Varennes could have been involved in a short conflict during that time also, not for the whole war.

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10-24-2019, 12:59 PM
Post: #13
RE: The Kingdom of Varennes
(10-24-2019 11:13 AM)August Dux Wrote:  I like the idea of buffer states being absorbed. But I think Edgard has suggested he wanted Varennes to be neutral, or at least preoccupied with internal crisis, during the Pan-Anarian War? You'll have to enlighten us, Edgard. Having said that, it was a 50 year conflict. Varennes could have been involved in a short conflict during that time also, not for the whole war.

Yeah, the reason why I was hesitant at first is that I still have a lot of reading and processing to do - I wasn't sure if this is something I wanted Varennes to be a part of because I don't know enough about it? I'll do some reading, we can figure something out?
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10-25-2019, 02:16 PM (This post was last modified: 10-25-2019 02:17 PM by Morbius.)
Post: #14
RE: The Kingdom of Varennes
Quote:Building up debts as a nation... How does that work in a Gothan setting? Who is providing the money and what would they get in return?

An interesting point. It entirely depends on the economic model employed by the state in question. Anisora for example uses a largely liberal (Liberal) market capitalist system, so a lot of debt is private as well as state-owned. Often national debts are organised between state controlled banks. So, if the Varennese crown borrowed money, they may have borrowed it internationally from the Auresian, Anisoran and Amberian state banks, for example.

Also, just putting it out there, the Pontecorvo banking family could be a player in this. Roughly based on the Rothschild family, they are one of the richest families in Gotha and, like the Rothschilds, would likely bankroll nations, such is their wealth and influence. There may be a Varennese branch of the family that lent the King loads of cash over the years.

Auresia has a pretty free market economy. Perhaps not as liberal (Liberal) as Anisora's, but its a business friendly setting. There's some regulation, but it's not draconian or heavy-handed.

If Auresia lent money to Varennes, it would be via either the largest banking firms - on a secure line of credit with a very favorable interest rate, or none at all depending - or if it's large-scale enough, from the Imperial Treasury itself. Again, at friendly rates. In those cases, the loan would be authorized via the FMO (First Minister's Office) with the Ministry of Finance on countersign. Terms for repayment would be prearranged.

For major business undertakings, in some cases, CHAIM may even be interested in investment or providing money. It all depends on the scale. CHAIM isn't the Pontecorvo family, but they're pretty flush with cash, so they can be a powerful friend to have in the business and finance world.
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10-27-2019, 10:25 PM
Post: #15
RE: The Kingdom of Varennes
For the benefit of everyone, after discussing Edgard's proposal on the Gotha discord server, the active admins have approved the proposal!

There are still lots to discuss, including integrating it into established lore and history, as well as slotting Varennes' into the Orkanan world, but that can be discussed going forward. In the meantime, I'm looking forward to seeing Varennes come to life on the wiki!

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10-28-2019, 07:18 AM
Post: #16
RE: The Kingdom of Varennes
^thumbs up

About Varennes and the Pan Anarian War... Neutrality is not an option LOL. Changing sides, forming alliances and betray them, all of that is allowed. Make the Pan Anarian your own! Use it in a way that fits defining Varennes as it is today. It could enter late and pick up some interesting smoldering left-overs. Or it could withdraw like Penryn did. Tons of options. It is a confusing episode, but it's Pan-Anarian!

VITTMARK:"This mess is a place." --- FISKS:"Fisk you!"
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