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Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
11-10-2019, 02:57 PM
Post: #11
RE: Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
It's the guy from Vittmark dropping by! Stuff's happening.... Some quick comments.

The reason why Nester isn't mentioned much in ancient and more recent history is probably because we did not want to impose too much of established event on any nation being developed here. So it doesn't necessarily have to be neutral. Personally I don't see how an island nation could remain neutral and in the background of events for centuries, doesn't seem very plausible. Feel free to convince me otherwise though.

I'd also like to point out the length of the historical period here. If the first bank was established just after 6000RH, that's about the equivalent of 500AD in RL. We really have to think through it if such a concept or institution could have survived 15 centuries.

I do like the late transition from Fyrirhugun to Mellanhand, it gives the opportunity to have ancient rituals left in society that have vanished elsewhere. Also, going over to Mellanhand would be a good way to respond to major geopolitical events, like the rise of the Stoldavic Empire. "We're already converted, no reason to conquer us!"

Then language. Dutch is being used in URP, or at least designated to that area. Afrikaans has branched off from Dutch about 3 centuries ago. So that would imply that URP and at least the western part of Nester were under the same management somewhere in the not too distant past. That will be difficult to establish. The alternative is that some form of Dutch was spoken on the entire coast of Stoldavia and that it was replaced by German (Stoldish) a couple of centuries ago in the central parts . That would imply that southern Stoldavia was Dutch speaking during the Greater Stoldavic Empire. It's not impossible, but it requires some creativity that does not defy logic too much. BTW I'm a native speaker of Dutch, so if you need any hand in testing names etc, just let me know.

VITTMARK:"This mess is a place." --- FISKS:"Fisk you!"
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11-10-2019, 06:16 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2019 06:19 PM by jph2.)
Post: #12
RE: Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
(11-10-2019 02:57 PM)Pepijn Wrote:  Personally I don't see how an island nation could remain neutral and in the background of events for centuries, doesn't seem very plausible. Feel free to convince me otherwise though.

I didn't mean to imply Sudety was always neutral. The Wolgos slavers were always a hated and feared threat, so the second-worldish Sudetans would have welcomed human alliances as a matter of self-preservation. The Wolgos threat and the need for self-preservation it engendered is a key part of the Sudetan psyche and can also help explain why Sudety would want to avoid wars it likely would get smashed to pieces in. If, for example, Sudety had been an active player in the Pan-Anarian War, it likely would have sided with Helreich, due to proximity, even with Helreich's blasphemous Stellism. That would have resulted, most likely, with Sudety today existing as a state largely due to it being a part of the treaty ending the war, not on any of its own merits.

The Orkanan Realm definitely included Nester, at least the part that is Sudety today.That's where Sudetan nobility and the Orkanan faith came from. Following the Migration Period, the Dragar Monopoly would have had some influence, but the Sudetan Confederation likely was at least semi-independent.

Sudety would have been part of the Greater Stoldavic Empire by virtue of proximity to Stoldavia and the history of the previous Orkanan Realm. Stellist-Orkanan was considered heretical in Sudety and the Confederation was all too pleased to become a Duchy of the Empire in exchange for continued allegiance during the Helreich cessationist civil war. The fact Sudety did little for either side in the civil war resulted in very few consequences from Helreich upon its independence.

Neutrality became a thing for Sudety at the start of the Tandem War (7446) due to the banking and trade that had developed post-Stoldavic Empire. Sudety would know it couldn't expect to side with Helreich and survive militarily, not to mention such a war would destroy its trade and banking economy. The nobility would likely have wanted to side with Helreich, so this, rather than the rise of Stellism, will be what precipitated the Guild Coup, which changed Sudety from a Duchy to its present Republic. Frankly, I think this is a better rationale for the Guild Coup. Smile

(11-10-2019 02:57 PM)Pepijn Wrote:  I'd also like to point out the length of the historical period here. If the first bank was established just after 6000RH, that's about the equivalent of 500AD in RL. We really have to think through it if such a concept or institution could have survived 15 centuries.

With the revised historical timeline, let's say Korbus Jansing started his bank in 7248. Banking then grew and prospered after that, gaining its famous secrecy protections as a result of the power of the Bankers Guild. The growth of the power of the guilds is also what allowed them to depose the nobility in 7446 at the start of the Tandem Wars.

(11-10-2019 02:57 PM)Pepijn Wrote:  Then language. Dutch is being used in URP, or at least designated to that area. Afrikaans has branched off from Dutch about 3 centuries ago. So that would imply that URP and at least the western part of Nester were under the same management somewhere in the not too distant past. That will be difficult to establish. The alternative is that some form of Dutch was spoken on the entire coast of Stoldavia and that it was replaced by German (Stoldish) a couple of centuries ago in the central parts . That would imply that southern Stoldavia was Dutch speaking during the Greater Stoldavic Empire. It's not impossible, but it requires some creativity that does not defy logic too much. BTW I'm a native speaker of Dutch, so if you need any hand in testing names etc, just let me know.

Some Dutch influence would have come with the Orkanan Realm and the introduction of Orkanan. The major migrations routes map shows the migration period would have brought Dutch, English, and probably romance languages, and maybe even some slavic influences. Despite the likelihood of German becoming the predominant language of Nester, the fact the Dolmer ethnicity had little penetration beyond the northern coasts of Nester, leaving the Brücht ethnicity dominant, supports the language being Germanic, yet distinct from Helreich.

Since I didn't want to use German, and Dutch is already further up the Stoldavic coast, I figured Afrikaans was a good and justifiable alternative. I also seemed harder to explain how one of the north Germanic languages (Swedish, Danish, etc.) could have found its way to prominence on Nester, so these didn't seem a logical option. If this doesn't fit, then I can use German if that's the consensus.
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11-10-2019, 08:24 PM
Post: #13
RE: Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
Just saying that Afrikaans is just as much of a stetch as a Scandinavian language like Danish to be present here. Both are possible. They just need some anchoring. Nester is located "on the wrong side" of Stoldavia to be able to use Icelandic or Faeroese, maybe, but those are options as well. Especially with a combination of a long survival of the ancient Fyrirhugun Orkanan branch here. I would not like to see German used on Nester, even though it says so on the lingo map. With Helreich being there where it is and with its established history and current political system, it would be weird to use German here.

Have you considered renaming the nation? Whatever language you will be using, Afrikaans, Faeroese, German, etc... Sudety is a word that would not fit any of those languages I'm afraid. I also comes really close to "Sudety", the Czech region that used to have a large proportion of German speaking inhabitants. We will never be able to completely steer away from names that are in use in RW of course, I already visited dozens of places that carry the same name as places in Vittmark myself.

VITTMARK:"This mess is a place." --- FISKS:"Fisk you!"
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Yesterday, 03:16 PM (This post was last modified: Yesterday 03:18 PM by jph2.)
Post: #14
RE: Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
(11-10-2019 08:24 PM)Pepijn Wrote:  Just saying that Afrikaans is just as much of a stetch as a Scandinavian language like Danish to be present here. Both are possible. They just need some anchoring. Nester is located "on the wrong side" of Stoldavia to be able to use Icelandic or Faeroese, maybe, but those are options as well. Especially with a combination of a long survival of the ancient Fyrirhugun Orkanan branch here. I would not like to see German used on Nester, even though it says so on the lingo map. With Helreich being there where it is and with its established history and current political system, it would be weird to use German here.

I am open to suggestions on language. I'm just trying to make it fit.

(11-10-2019 08:24 PM)Pepijn Wrote:  Have you considered renaming the nation? Whatever language you will be using, Afrikaans, Faeroese, German, etc... Sudety is a word that would not fit any of those languages I'm afraid. I also comes really close to "Sudety", the Czech region that used to have a large proportion of German speaking inhabitants. We will never be able to completely steer away from names that are in use in RW of course, I already visited dozens of places that carry the same name as places in Vittmark myself.

Sudety is clearly similar to Sudete and Sudety's etymology is lifted from the RW name. The RW analog becomes the Wolgos wording since the language map shows Wolgos was proto-indo-european. The Nesterians would likely have had names for their settlements, but maybe not a name for the vast expanse. In that way, the Wolgos term came to be used and when the Orkanan Realm established its foothold,

Sudet was formalized as the name for the highlands (there are a couple of Gotha Wiki links to the Sudet Highlands). When the Duchy was established in northern Nester, Sudet was chosen as the name to distinguish it from southern Nester or Nester major as a whole. The Hallish (English) variant adds the y, making it Sudety. As for Sudetenland, the name is neither German nor Czech, so my perspective is Sudety can be a loan word rather than having to come from the indigenous language.

If Sudety is too close to Sudete/Sudeten, then I can come up with a different name once we determine what language I should use.
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Today, 02:29 PM (This post was last modified: Today 02:34 PM by August Dux.)
Post: #15
RE: Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
Jph2 Wrote:My concept for the brokerage houses includes some that are willing to facilitate shady deals, perhaps even for prohibited items. In this regard, I suspect there are vessels flagged by countries that don't have to pay the Straits tariffs that might be willing, for the right price, to transport cargo for companies/people who would otherwise have to pay the tariffs. Some brokerage houses would help make these connections and cross-load the cargo, taking their cut as well. Thus, country Y, who would have to pay the tariff, can get a ship from Country A (maybe even from Vittmark, with a flag of convenience?), that is part of the Cartel and not subject to tariff, to haul the cargo, facilitated for a price by Shady & Co. Brokers in Sudet. And so, country Y can avoid the tariff in this case, not unlike a Vittmarkan vessel with an Anisoran flag of convenience.

Sounds very similar to the Anisoran flag of convenience policy, to be honest. This is always the issue of retroactively making the history fit. For the point of the narrative, we might have to say that if Sudety was doing something similar to Anisora, the Anisoran flag was a better opportunity for non-signatory nations, being a member of the Cartel itself. Otherwise, Vittmark and others might have used the Sudetan system instead - which they didn't. Anisora was a member of the Cartel, Sudety wasn't - so I imagine the Anisoran system would have been more attractive, if more controversial.

In terms of your 'refined territorial concept', I don't see any issue with it. It makes Sudety a bigger state, which would mean they would have to tread the diplomatic/political line very carefully. In line with what Pep said, the larger the state gets the more unlikely it becomes that Sudety wouldn't have been drawn into the PAW at some point - but it's not necessarily an inevitably, if we can work out the diplomatic/political context.

Jph2 Wrote:Following the Migration Period, the Dragar Monopoly would have had some influence, but the Sudetan Confederation likely was at least semi-independent.

The beauty about the Dragar Monopoly is that each state is precisely semi-independent! It's a confederation, so each state that joins would have its own government and regional institutions etc. For most of the Monopoly, there was no centralised government institution that dictated things for member states - only the Conclave, which operated on a consensus model anyway. That would change later in the Monopoly's life, after the Dragar Schism (6234) and the beginnings of the 'Dragar Imperium' (c.6315) when Auresia takes control over the Monopoly and basically forces all remaining members to become part of her centralised empire. If Sudety was a member or just within the Monopoly's sphere of influence, lots of things are possible. The duchy could even have been a member of the Monopoly for only a short period.

Jph2 Wrote:With the revised historical timeline, let's say Korbus Jansing started his bank in 7248.

I think that timeframe makes a lot more sense. Considering Sudety's position as an island far out to sea from mainland Anaria, it would be unlikely that the first major international banks would be established on the island. More likely they would have been established in Anaria itself - just for pure logistical reasons. Once advanced communications like telegraph and telephone, as well as airships were invented, there would be fewer barriers to literal off-shore banking! Nevertheless, this new date puts the Jansing bank in a prime position - with the Pontecorvo family only starting their international banking empire in the 7330s. I imagine they will be fierce competitors!

Pepijn Wrote:Afrikaans is just as much of a stetch as a Scandinavian language like Danish to be present here. Both are possible. They just need some anchoring.
Jph2 Wrote:I am open to suggestions on language. I'm just trying to make it fit.

As for the language, I see the issue. If Afrikaans is spoken on Nestor, I think a Dutch connection should exist. The only idea I've had for making this work would be a potential Wolgos invasion or recurring raids of Nestor, which depopulated much of the island at some point in the past. Once the Wolgos were repelled fresh migrations from the modern-day United Provinces (Dutch-speakers) settled on the island to repopulate. We could then maybe explain the heavy Dutch influence on the formation of Afrikaans on the island?

Pepijn Wrote:Have you considered renaming the nation?

The word 'Sudety' is literally the Czech name for the Sudetenland, so there is a very clear lift from RW etymology. As Pep is our native Dutch-speaker and he says the name doesn't really fit, a subtle change might work to make it fit Afrikaans more. But the name Sudety may well stay the same for Hallish speakers, but the native name may need some more consideration.

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Today, 05:02 PM (This post was last modified: Today 05:11 PM by jph2.)
Post: #16
RE: Sudety 2.0 and Why Nester was Left Out of the PAW
(Today 02:29 PM)August Dux Wrote:  Sounds very similar to the Anisoran flag of convenience policy, to be honest.

I did not mean for that to be the case. I was trying to show trading houses would broker trades for anything, legitimate or not. The idea wasn't well thought out so I'll drop it. Sorry for any confusion.

(Today 02:29 PM)August Dux Wrote:  In terms of your 'refined territorial concept', I don't see any issue with it. It makes Sudety a bigger state, which would mean they would have to tread the diplomatic/political line very carefully. In line with what Pep said, the larger the state gets the more unlikely it becomes that Sudety wouldn't have been drawn into the PAW at some point - but it's not necessarily an inevitably, if we can work out the diplomatic/political context.

The proximity of Nester to Stoldavia and Helreich and the previous history with the Orkanan Realm and Greater Stoldovic Empire would likely result in Sudety being involved in the Tandem Wars and the Pan-Anarian War on the side of Helreich. It's not very plausible for Sudety to have sided with the faraway central Anarian powers.

With that in mind, if my concept is approved, I'll adjust the history accordingly. And the present Republic will result from a military coup in 7545 during the Haverist-Wolgos War and PAW, taking advantage of Helreich being engaged in a two-front war. Following the coup, the Republic will withdraw from the PAW to lick its wounds.

(Today 02:29 PM)August Dux Wrote:  As for the language, I see the issue. If Afrikaans is spoken on Nestor, I think a Dutch connection should exist. The only idea I've had for making this work would be a potential Wolgos invasion or recurring raids of Nestor, which depopulated much of the island at some point in the past. Once the Wolgos were repelled fresh migrations from the modern-day United Provinces (Dutch-speakers) settled on the island to repopulate. We could then maybe explain the heavy Dutch influence on the formation of Afrikaans on the island?

Pepijn Wrote:Have you considered renaming the nation?

The word 'Sudety' is literally the Czech name for the Sudetenland, so there is a very clear lift from RW etymology. As Pep is our native Dutch-speaker and he says the name doesn't really fit, a subtle change might work to make it fit Afrikaans more. But the name Sudety may well stay the same for Hallish speakers, but the native name may need some more consideration.
Dutch settlers would have been Dolmer, but Nester's overwhelmingly ethnicity is Brücht, so Dutch speakers repopulating Nester seems a stretch to me. The easy solution is to just make the country's language German. This follows the language map. It also fits with Helreich being so close across the sea and the influence of the Orkanan Realm and Stoldavic Empires.

How about the name Stachelort in place of Sudety? Then the colony name will be Stacheler D'Runia.
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